An Interview With p.c.m. christ
Conducted By J.R. Dunmore on behalf of Virginia Gentry Magazine
J.R.: Why did you decide to write this book?
p.c.m.: Well, it’s my first long-form, so that was an important part of it. Originally conceived of what I call Dixie Noir. As far as why, I am very much… I guess they call it a gardener type of writer. Where I just kind of follow thoughts rather than have anything laid out. So, other than knowing there was going to be a murder in the South. I didn’t know much else. Everything that came after was the result of following that notion.
J.R.: That’s impressive considering the depth that you went into, at least philosophically speaking. It’s a really good book, and your inclusion of Blakean ideas in a work that wasn’t plotted is admirable.
Where did you get the title Give Up The Ghost?
p.c.m.: It was originally going to be called Terminus, which was the original name of Atlanta, Ga., but as I kept writing and saw the themes emerge and the more spiritual side of the book then Give Up The Ghost, you know being after the death of Christ in the KJV seemed appropriate in all regards. It’s a beautiful phrase.
J.R.: Beautiful and extremely loaded too. Much like when you put the words of William Blake in red letters.
p.c.m.: It preps people for what they are gonna get a little bit I think (chuckles).
J.R.: I mean, I think it’s a brilliant choice, that reminds me of what I said in my review of the book, it’s subversive, but not tasteless.
Here is a question for you, how did Atticus come to you in writing? Or did you always have this character in your head, and you were just looking for the right setting?
p.c.m.: To be honest with you, I really don’t know. It must have been in there somewhere. I knew that coming from the mountain, I knew who he was, in a way. He is a pure being that comes down into the mortal world and experiences our tragedies. A lot of the book is him responding to those things. With his name, I think it makes things distinctly Southern in a lot of ways. So, I knew who he was, as far as what he would be doing, and going through, before I knew him as an actual character.
J.R.: He is very much a messianic figure, even if he doesn’t realize it. What I found the most impressive thing about AR, is that I know people just like him. You were able to portray a certain type of person very well, and he is a person that I have met many times before.
p.c.m.: There is an interesting aspect to America especially. I don’t know that Europe has this. A lot of people associate the South with the “white trash” stereotype, which is completely inaccurate. It is closer to mountain men, and rednecks. In other words, it’s the cowboys before they were cowboys. Yet, the interesting part about that, that a lot of people don’t give them credit for, and this almost goes back to early America, [Allen] Bloom talks about this in The Closing Of The American Mind, that one reason democracy worked and the American project worked was because that Americans were among the most literate people on the planet. For example, in stagecoaches, there were the works of Shakespeare, and next to it was the Holy Bible. Traditionally, the blue-collar class in America, and still today in the South, people are very familiar with the Bible. With the importance of that document, it does offer a perspective and education that a lot of other demographics don’t have.
J.R.: Absolutely. Whether or not someone believes the Bible is literal, the utility of Scripture is obvious.
Did you face any challenges in writing this book? What were some difficulties you had in getting this story out?
p.c.m.: Well, it was my first long-form, my previous work under the name p.c.m. christ, like the short stories you’ll find on my Substack, were my first projects after coming back from a years-long hiatus, and every story found there is an exercise of some kind. So, a lot of them were very focused, pretty short, and pretty dense and distilled. Just because I was after one thing. With my first long-form project (Give Up The Ghost), which I offered as a free PDF, and also sold as a paperback book. I knew people would be reading it, and it would require their time. Then the most important thing is that I was a newcomer to plot, in the sense that I had only written one long-form piece before I was p.c.m., and I was a much different writer and much younger as well. So, that level of consideration of the reader was not something that I had taken into account as p.c.m., that’s one reason it took me a while to write even though it isn’t incredibly long. I essentially had to learn plot, foreshadowing, tension, pacing, and drama, rather than a “tour de force” that came out of my ideas for the project. That was probably the most difficult thing from a technical standpoint. Its also a book that “looks into the void” so it has that kind of toll to it as well.
J.R.: I think this was mentioned in the review. The book definitely demands something from you. It’s a powerful book, and very short but you don’t lose the essence of the philosophical. It reminds me of a philosophical allegory more than just a novel with philosophical themes.
p.c.m.: For sure.
J.R.: What made you decide to become an author, or decide to start writing fiction in the first place?
p.c.m.: Well, I’ve always loved fiction specifically. I enjoy philosophy to a small degree, but fiction has always sort of been my bag. I have read constantly throughout my life, but I never really would draw comics. Other than when I was a kid. I never really considered being an author, for whatever reason. I didn’t know any [authors]. You know what I mean. That’s kind of part of it too. Not knowing anyone won’t give you any ambitions, but once I discovered modernism in college and its experimental nature of the higher approach to it just really appealed to me. I’ve also said, fiction is philosophy in the context of a human being.
J.R.: Absolutely.
p.c.m.: That appeals not only to my heart but also it appeals to a certain pragmatism that I have, where I can understand abstracts and I have fun with them. However, when telling a story, the idea of it being more relevant, the idea of people living it is more appealing to me. I also think that more than anything is just the level of creativity that it allows as opposed to just thinking intensely. You know, to create is an act of God I think. It’s a gift that we’ve been given. Fiction allows me to put all of those sensibilities in one package. I love art in general, like art is really it, right? But words and stories have always appealed to me at a level that has no identifiable origin.
J.R.: That’s the essence like you said, “art being an act of God.” I mean, I consider writing art. Nonfiction even, to a point, philosophical and theological work I would absolutely call art. You know, the manual for a Chevy C30 is less so. However, in the actual construction of the engine, you could argue is an “act of God” or creative art as well.
p.c.m.: Engineering is art for sure.
J.R.: That’s probably as close as we can get to this mortal world to what Adam had in the garden. Being a co-creator of sorts, if you want to call it that. It is the distilled essence of truth displayed tangibly with a variety of applications. I mean, fiction is incredibly powerful. I mean, frankly, that’s why the Bible is still so relevant outside of a religious context. Not that it is fiction, but that it is a written narrative. You know you can take some philosophical works, that are… let me say it like this, Nietzsche specifically is very important, especially to the philosophical right-wing, but Nietzsche’s ideas as aphorisms are only so good as when they can be applied in a tangible sense. That’s why so many guys on the right-wing love the classics like the Iliad and the Odyssey. You see the heroic fleshed out in a tangible sense.
p.c.m.: Yeah. For sure.
J.R.: I think that’s why the Bible has remained so relevant outside of a Christian or Jewish audience. Because it puts to narrative ideas that are fundamentally philosophical and theological.
p.c.m.: For sure, whether it comes from our limitations of a mortal perspective or not, even talking about art, the acts of God—and logos is incredibly important to the West as a concept—even the acts of God, or being this sort of entity that exists unto himself, and pulling from the ether to create new things and name them. It’s exactly that. Rather than philosophy, it’s not really… like, Nietzsche is kind of a guidebook, and you know people will be up in arms about that statement. However, generally speaking, he is more or less saying “Here is a way to live.” Whereas the acts of God, especially the older texts become the mirror of human life and human action much more so than expounding on what to do with what we have been given.
J.R.: I think that’s why Jordan Peterson blew up so much with his Bible interpretation videos. It’s unfortunate that it took him to get to the philosophical bedrock of Scripture, I guess you could say. But, it’s important, I mean all of the classic works of literature are. I want to say it was Seneca the Roman Stoic Philosopher who said this, but something to the effect of “Don’t tell me your philosophy, but embody it.” I think that is what makes fiction so beautiful.
p.c.m.: Agreed.
Are there any authors or books that influenced you? And, are there any authors and books that influenced your writing? I ask those two separately because I realize you may prefer to write more like one author, but your overall sense of story and feeling come from another.
p.c.m.: Well, I have my favorites. So, starting off with when I began reading classic adventure-style novels, like Treasure Island and Journey To The Center Of The Earth. The Three Musketeers was the first book I ever really loved. Sherlock Holmes was another. However, that changed as I got more into the experimental stuff. Although I didn’t have exposure to a lot of classic works for various reasons. I kind of pull from everything. I have a similar appreciation for music, it’s very broad, rather than just drilling down into one spot. David Foster Wallace is massive, Allen Moore is still my favorite author of all time. I mean, he is the first author I’ve ever loved, and I just don’t think I’ll ever get past him.
As far as writing style, that’s a weird one man. Because of my origins, I’m not a classic author, I never studied the classics or went to school for it. I mean, I don’t have a sweater. My learning and approach to writing has always been with the wildness of an autodidact. Almost totally unstructured and learning as I go. So, I don’t know how to answer this exactly, because I learn very much through osmosis. I read very wildly, and my foundation is in the Bible, but I’ve never sat down and tried to mimic an author’s style. Even someone like Faulkner, I mean I’m Southern, and Give Up The Ghost is a definitively Southern book, but I don’t know if I would consider myself a Southern writer like Faulkner, because this is the first Southern story I’ve ever written.
J.R.: I can understand that sentiment.
p.c.m.: So, talking about the influences on my prose I can say this. Whether it be more of the Southern Tradition, you can see it in Faulkner or even McCarthy, but I have a Bloomian love of aesthetics when it comes to prose. I guess that’s the closest thing I can give to a real answer. So, any author that has that kind of emphasis on prose has more of an influence on me and I appreciate that more than the prose of someone like Hemmingway. Although I do like Hemmingway, I would never write like him.
J.R.: He’s too simple. (chuckles)
p.c.m.: Yeah. Hard in it’s its own way, but I don’t want to do that to words. He does what he does for the story, I am interested in the words.
J.R.: From reading your book, I can see that. It’s apparent that there are multiple levels of depth with your influences. I can see that manifest in the juxtaposition between the narrative of the visceral tangible murder mystery and these absolutely intense vivid visions or hallucinations of Atticus and his father. If you went and picked up a “normal” book off the shelf at a bookstore, you would typically get one or the other, but you have done an excellent job of tying those seemingly conflicting realities together.
p.c.m.: Yeah, man. Thank you. Binaries and dualities are something that I’m kind of obsessed with, and struggle with.
J.R.: I can tell.
(Both Laugh)
p.c.m.: Yeah, so, it’s the same as I’ve said in a few other interviews, I don’t really think that we are gonna find a lot in capital-R-realism anymore. Whether it’s sort of the awakening of the ancient perspective I’ve talked about in my essay Cthulhu Turns Right or, whether it’s just acknowledging that we live in two realities now with the internet.
J.R.: Even without the internet, if you think about two realities as a metaphysical concept, and maybe this is because I grew up in a very religious household that was very big on symbolism. You know not Blakean, in that sense, but it was very visceral. Even when I read something that tries to be materialist, I can always see past it. Maybe I am seeing things that aren’t really there, but I feel like, and maybe this is Jung’s influence on me, but I can see below it. If that makes sense.
p.c.m.: That’s the thing though man, that’s empowering.
J.R.: It’s terrifying.
p.c.m.: That’s right-wing postmodernism. You are given agency through your interpretation, and that’s power. Do you know what I mean? That’s being re-moralized. I think that’s a huge thing.
J.R.: Thankfully, I didn’t have to work on that too hard with your book.
p.c.m.: I’m not subtle. (chuckles)
J.R.: I love it though. Because I am a deep thinker, and there are times when I’ll get hung up on an event, whether it is a book, film, or anything where I can get lost in a spiral where that’s all I am thinking about for weeks. During that time, I keep trying to deconstruct and reconstruct what was actually being said, and I have to reminding myself that the author I am reading is probably not that deep. However, at the same time, that doesn’t mean that what I am wrestling with is not the reality of what they have written. They may not be aware of what it is that they are tapping into. That’s terrifying too, but anyway.
p.c.m.: Anyway.
(Both laugh)
J.R.: How do you balance, or how do you manage to balance writing with your other responsibilities?
p.c.m.: That’s a lot less sleep.
(Both laugh)
p.c.m.: That’s the only way you can do it, man.
J.R.: I would argue that being sleep-deprived helps the creative process because you get to that place where you are almost hallucinating, and you can really get to the core of the thing.
p.c.m.: I will say, Give Up The Ghost was completely written at night.
J.R.: You know what, I think I only read it at night. I think I might have read the first two chapters during the day, but everything else I read in the dark. That probably made it more real for me.
p.c.m.: That’s cool to think about.
J.R.: In the review, I tried to tell everyone how I think it’s best read, and I think I said that it should be read in 1-4 sittings. No more than four, because I think that there are certain breaks in the story that make sense to stop at for the night, for example, the first page of chapter 7, and let me look through it here to see where I have it marked, I have the book sitting in front of me.
p.c.m.: That’s the real part, about finishing a book and seeing people buy it. Knowing it’s on bookshelves.
J.R.: Certainly. Give Up The Ghost is sitting next to Faulkner on my shelf.
p.c.m.: That’s cool, man.
J.R.: Certainly, brother. How did you approach the publishing process?
p.c.m.: Well, I knew, especially since it was my first long-form, that I was going to self-publish. To be honest with you, I really just wanted complete control over it. Especially with it being my first novel. It’s a good feeling, man. For example, I designed the cover, I did the promo videos, and the approach was really to have complete control, but to also have fun. I didn’t want to lose control with traditional publishing.
J.R.: For sure, books edited by major publishers can become a gross distortion of the original work.
p.c.m.: The cover too, I am really proud of it.
J.R.: It is a beautiful book. I love the green spine.
p.c.m.: I do love the look of that spine on a bookshelf.
J.R.: It’s a good book, obviously were are here to discuss its contents, but just the physical book itself. It looks great. A simple but striking cover, and the margins are pretty good, I like the more traditional serif font that you included.
p.c.m.: Yeah, that font is “Georgia.” I didn’t think there was anything else that I could use honestly. (chuckles)
J.R.: I can’t argue with that. What advice would you give to aspiring authors who are working on their first book?
p.c.m.: It’s gonna take longer than you think it will and you should be alright with that. The big thing is to just put your butt in the chair, that’s really what it takes. With a short story or a poem, you can be overtaken by creativity and inspiration, but with a book, you really just have to put in the work, there is no way around that. The other thing would be to get people that you trust and respect to read it, especially before you get too deep into it. I have a couple of readers that I’ve always had, and I had sent them the book when I was about 20 pages in. Kind of like, before I go and add a hundred more, do y’all agree that there is something here? Fortunately they did this case.
Writing is an interesting thing. especially nowadays if you’re writing for an audience that is online, which we basically all are. Then the sort of classic solipsism doesn’t apply as much. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that there is a ready made community made for people and I think people should use it, whether it’s for feedback, challenge each other, or just to learn.
I also think people should do whatever they can to remove themselves from the book regarding ego. I personally am not one that is impressed by “acrobatics,” which has been driven since the 1960’s with postmodernism. I get the idea that you gain creative freedom, right. You should revel in the fact that you can do anything with art, but a lot of writers start doing the “acrobatics” for status, and it’s incredibly fleeting. That’s something that I see a lot now. People either aren’t willing to step away, from a tradition that they consider themselves ensconced in, or they are simply trying to show off, and when you show up like that you clap once, and when you try to emulate an older tradition, you kind of melt into it. What the Novel as a medium needs to remain relevant is to show new perspectives on the world and on life.
J.R.: Here is a follow up, Did you write yourself into the story? If you did, do you think it was a good or bad thing? If I were to ask another question on top of that, how do you prevent yourself from doing that, and should you prevent yourself from doing that?
p.c.m.: Most authors, when they write themselves into a story, are going to do a singular character. Maybe it’s my “retardation,” but for me writing is a creatively liberating exercise, the best way I can put it is, if I am in there, my voice and my assertions are there, but I think that I am probably spread throughout all of the characters. I tend to write from a conviction, from each place that I inhabit or each perspective that I present. To be honest I cant really define myself through any of them.
J.R.: That’s an interesting perspective. Let me think about that for a little while. From reading it, it’s almost like you are at war with yourself on the pages, but that makes for great conflict because you know your weaknesses better than anyone else, I suppose. It makes for great reading.
Do you have a favorite part or scene of the book?
p.c.m.: All of my favorite parts are the ones I consider the most beautiful. I am very fond of the pig scene. Just because I was in a flow state on that one, and I had no idea it was coming. I think the pig scene is what cements the whole book. It’s almost like, okay, now I know what I am getting myself into.
J.R: The pig scene was like a punch in the gut, but in the best way. It caught me off guard, and I think I said this in the interview but it didn’t feel abrupt in a bad way. It was more like, oh, we’re here now. I think I said something like, you can’t tell if it’s psychosis, supernatural, drug induced, or what. It was very interesting. Also the last vision that AR sees of the angle and the woman getting stoned. I need to re-read it because I don’t feel like I caught all of the details.
p.c.m.: That scene at the end with the tome is kind of a shift, to where everything in that, except for her revelation takes place outside of nature, and it’s someone else encountering the spirit-world and believing in it. She has the same conviction as Cillian does, by the end AR will get there too. That was a pretty big shift. I don’t know if I put it in the correct spot. Another thing, just because it is a beautiful memory for me, was when I took my kids to a park and that was when I wrote my favorite prose, a little paragraph which is the first date AR and Marlin have. Specifically when it talks about a summer romance.
Most of the book was written at night when I was deep in my thoughts. That particular scene was written as I sat there and watched my kids play. That was kind of special. When I finished writing it, I thought to myself, wow, where did that come from. It might be the most beautiful part of the book beside the baseball scene.
J.R: Yea, the baseball scene is beautiful, and I don’t even watch baseball.
(Both laugh)
p.c.m.: But now I do.
(Both laugh)
J.R.: How do you feel now that your first book is out there?
p.c.m.: Pretty good, man. Pretty good. Before I became p.c.m. christ, I used to write under a different name, but there was a years long hiatus between where I didn’t write. So, this book, as far as having finished a book is a long time coming for me.
It’s strange to release even though it’s right at the end of novella and beginning of novel length wise. It’s a little strange to release a book in a time where nobody really reads because they have goldfish brain.
J.R.: I’ll tell you what. No goldfish brain here, I won’t be forgetting this. It really did a number on me.
p.c.m.: Well you made it through. (chuckles)
That’s the one thing I’ll say, I think that if people will read it, then I don’t think they will forget it. At least it will speak to them or they will enjoy the experience or reading it. It’s just getting them to read it.
J.R.: The moment for me that really made me say, okay, I have to finish this, is the first vision that Cillian AR’s father has. It wasn’t even the vision so much as the response to it. I don’t quite remember how exactly the scene played out, but he vomited…
p.c.m.: Oh, when he was drunk and he puked over the porch railing.
J.R.: Yes! It was so vivid in my head. That’s when I said to myself, I need to see where this is going. That and the pig scene of course. (chuckles)
What do you hope readers will connect with most in your story?
p.c.m.: That’s a hard one. Like we talked about earlier, putting the two together, disparate aspects in approaches to writing. What I attempted was to make a story that someone could really enjoy in regards to the prose as a novel and the story itself without being overly concerned with the meta. The meta is there, but my thing is when you think and when you feel you know you’re alive. Those are the greatest gifts. So, my approach to the whole thing was on one level to give people access to feeling and to caring and being invested into something, and also if they would like something to think deeply about, that is available there too.
J.R.: Here’s another one, did you have any writers block, while working on Give Up The Ghost.
p.c.m.: I suppose so. I try not to believe in writers block, in the sense of, I just can’t think of what to write. I’ve found two things while writing this book, the cure for so-called writers block for me was just always to switch mediums. By that I mean what I write on, so, I usually type just to keep up with the speed of thought, but any time I was stuck on a scene and didn’t know what to do, I would just switch to writing by hand. This is something that I picked in writing long form, and that seemed to fix my writers block every time.
J.R.: I’ll have to try that, next time I am stuck on a project.
p.c.m.: It worked for me, man. The other part of it, and I don’t know if it was the relationship I had with the world. I mean, this was a consuming thing for me, even though I wasn’t writing every single day. For some reason or another, I would tend to find things as I kept reading, a lot of people won’t read while they are writing, at least other fiction, but as I would read, and I would find things that, from the perspective of the book would inspire me, and maybe this shows how Give Up The Ghost was all encompassing. When I would read things, there was an approach from when I was writing the book, because at that time I had the ideas and knew what I wanted to do with it, but I would find something that was relevant to give further inspiration to what I was writing.
J.R.: That’s great, brother.
You’re a Georgia boy, ain’t ya?
p.c.m.: Yes, sir. I don’t live there anymore though.
J.R.: Are you still in the South?
p.c.m.: Yea, but a litter further north than I would like. I do miss it. As I was writing, I realized pretty late into the book, that it was a love letter to Georgia, and to the South.
J.R.: I may have said this before, but as I was reading, I felt like I had been there and met these people before in some way or another. Which I think is a really good thing. I think it’s hard to do that in a story, to make your characters seem real in that sense. I never felt like you were straining to create a personalities within the book.
Aright, just a few more questions.
What emotions did you experience as you were writing, and as you finished your book?
p.c.m.: During the writing it was a lot of oscillating between despair and elation.
(Both laugh)
It was a heavy mental process. I am hesitant to say that kind of stuff, because people romanticize their own experience. Like I am an artist and this is born out of my tortured soul, or something like that. It’s basic in that it is just about love, life, and death. Love and death are just the the involvement of other peoples lives. So, there was a lot of that.
When I finished the first draft, which was actually very different, like 10,000 words shorter, but that was a really crazy thing, because I did it in a flurry…
J.R.: Did you do your own editing?
p.c.m.: Yes. I had readers, but I didn’t hire an editor or anything. Some of my readers were more considerate of the the grammar, some were more considerate of their response as a reader. I probably should have hired an editor though.
J.R.: I think I said in my review that I thought there were a few points that may have been typos, but I don’t know for sure.
p.c.m.: There were a couple. That’s how you know it is a first edition.
J.R.: I can’t help but be a little pissed that my copy wasn’t signed, but that fine. (chuckles)
p.c.m.: I would if I could, man. You know, I had an idea with like the little ghost dude on the front cover. If I wasn’t anonymous I really wanted to send them out myself with stickers of the ghost dude, or just putting them around the city, that would be pretty sweet.
J.R.: Well, if you ever do, tell me. I’ll get my copy signed.
(Both laugh)
I want my jacked up, dog-eared copy too. I don’t want a signature on something new and pretty. I want the copy that kept me up at night.
p.c.m.: I got you, brother. (chuckles)
J.R.: Well, I am looking forward to the next novel, brother. That’s all the questions I had for you. Do you have any questions for me?
p.c.m.: I don’t think so. Just a lot of thanks, for the interview, the book review, the support, and interest.
J.R.: Of course, brother. Thank you so much for doing this with me, and reach out whenever you want. I’m always happy to talk to a friend.
p.c.m.: Of course.
If you enjoyed this interview, and are interested in p.c.m. christ’s work, you can find his Substack here:
, and his twitter here: @plzcallmechrist.
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